2012年2月4日 星期六

修行探討的留言 Comments for Investigation into Practice

From: 因緣果:還有一個伸展 Karma : One More Extension

電蚊燈 提到...

我試著用科學家的宇宙觀來詮釋因緣果。21世紀有科學決定論與多重宇宙的想法:只要給定某個時刻宇宙的狀態(因的確立),我們宇宙的法則(緣)便會決定系 統的演進,便可推算出宇宙日後發展的結果(果)。(參考霍金一大設計一書)。不同宇宙有不同的法則(緣是可努力可改變的),若法則固定(習性不變),宇宙 演進的結果必可確定(習性的果)。

電蚊燈 said he will try to use scientists' view of universe to explain Karma. He said that 21st century has the idea of scientific determinism and multiple universe. If we are given a specific universe at a given time (Yin), the law of physic (Yuan) will dictate the evolution of the universe, and we can calculate the result (Result) (Consult Hawking's The Grand Design. Different universe has different laws (Yuan is changeable), but if the law is the same (habit does not change), the result of the universe's evolution can be determined (Result of habits.)
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電蚊燈 提到...

再補充一點,近代宇宙學與統一場論的研究觀察證實:宇宙的開始與演進,並不需要上帝來啟動,連惡魔也沒有插手的餘地。(對於身在英國的科學家-霍金而言, 提出這個觀點是不是很令人敬佩!)科學家已告訴我們大尺度的宇宙行為,做為宇宙的一份子,就如半寄師父與版主元所闡述的,自己設定的因,自己催動的緣,自 己熟成的果!不是老天爺,也沒有上帝來獎賞惩罰你。

電蚊燈 said that he would like to add a point. Recent researches in cosmology and unified field theory proved that the beginning and the evolution of the universe does not need a God, it doesn't even need a devil. Scientists already told us that behavior of the universe, at least the big picture. As part of the universe, we created our own Yin, we pushed our own Yuan and obtain our own results. God will not reward nor punish you.
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丫頭 提到...

請問空法也在因緣果裡嗎?還是因緣果在空法裡?

丫頭 asked is Śūnyatā part of Karma, or is Karma part of Śūnyatā ?

半寄 提到...

ㄚ頭: 中觀家認為存在是不可能成立的 ,比方{ 因}是:我活著,假設活著可以存在,就不需要緣,也就是活著的基礎條件,就因需要緣的成立才能活 ,所以不認為存在可成立, 因為是緣在支撐,緣一消失,{果}活著的肉體立刻沒有,中觀論認為緣是變動的,可以被變動的條件是{空}當背景,空是不固定存在的另一個解釋,所以因緣果的成立是融合空的結果。沒有空第一個條件{因}就已無法成立。這是一個大論點,先這樣解釋,不能清楚再討論。

Master Ban Ji answered:

Mūlamadhyamakakārikā thinks "existence" cannot be established. For example, if Yin (Cause) is I am alive. If we assume living can "exist", then it doesn't need Yuan (Conditions). In other words, the basic requirements for been alive need the establishment of Yuan (Conditions). Because been alive needs the support of Yuan (Conditions), once Yuan vanishes, Result, which is the body will cease to exist. So we don't think "existence" can be established. Mūlamadhyamakakārikā thinks Yuan (Condition) is changeable. The reason it is changeable is because of Śūnyatā. Śūnyatā is another explanation of non-permanent existence. So Karma is the result of fusing Śūnyatā. If there is no Śūnyatā , then Yin (Cause) cannot be established. This is a big argument. If this is not clear, we can discuss further.

元, Yuan 提到...

Humbly presenting another way to answer:

You can think of Śūnyatā as a theory and Karma as an application. Śūnyatā is like cosmology that scientists that thinks about, and the Karma is what the engineers at Apple uses to design iPads.

謙虛地提出另一種說法:

空是理論,因緣果是應用。 空像是科學家在探討的宇宙學,因緣果是蘋果公司的工程師用來設計iPad 的知識。
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電蚊燈 提到...

疑?空不就是一切的可能性嗎?沒有固定不變的自我特性稱為空。<因>是一切的可能,<緣>也是一切的可能,在所有的可能中做了抉擇,就產生果,所以, <果>,是從一切的可能中産生,那麼,<果>,也是一切的可能!因此,因緣果可説是空法的表現,繞圈圈的因緣果就是空法要表達的。卑微地提供拙見,請小聲 笑。

電蚊燈 said Huh? Doesn't Śūnyatā mean everything is possible? Don't we call the characteristic of all things is changing at all time Śūnyatā ? Yin (Cause) is that everything is possible. Yuan (Condition) also means that everything is possible. If you choose a possibility, than Result will occur. Therefore, Result is products from all the possibilities. Then it means that Result is everything is possible as well.Therefore, Karma can be said as the manifestation of Śūnyatā , and repetition of Yin, Yuan and Result is what Śūnyatā is trying to show. Humbly presenting my opinion.

半寄 提到...

電蚊燈說的只對一小部份, 空法的理論架構, 還需要很多說法才能完備!有機會再寫。

Master Ban Ji said:

Only partially right. there is more to Śūnyatā's theory and framework. I will write more about it given a chance later.
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From: 放下 1 Detachment or Letting Go 1

匿名 提到...

想了一下,但不太懂最後一段
控制變化的空間~跟是否放下,放下什麼的關連,可否說得再詳細一些?

元, Yuan 提到...

Anonymous wrote:

I don't really under the last part. Does "a mean to control the change" a connection between letting go and what to let go? Can you please explain in more detail?

Hi! It will be explained in tomorrow's article. In this article, it is not about what to let go. I actually have another article that will appear later that will talk about what to let go.

嗨!這明天的文章會解釋。放下什麼不是這篇文章的重點。我已經寫了另一篇文章將會提到放下什麼。以後會出現。
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From: 再論苦 Dukkha Again

ang5 提到...

非常同意"了解自己和自己的弱點,知道如何去消除弱點,您就會接近真相。"
但是,在今天台灣,苦是非常普遍的,只有極少數的人不為基本生活所苦.您所接觸的弱勢或許太少了!
洪宏元敬上

ang5 said: "I agree with 'Understand yourself and your own weaknesses. Know how to eliminate these weaknesses and you will be closer to the Truth.'

But in today's Taiwan, suffering is very common, only very few people do not suffer for basic life's necessity.

You probably do not know too many disadvantaged people."

半寄 提到...

ang5:謝謝宏元的說法, 你提的基本生活 ,已是多層面問題 , 含國家政策導向 ,公司經營方向 ,貧富差距的成立 ,已遠非我們討論範圍 , 我們討論的是各人困境的喘息! 我承認大環境的影響很大。但論點太大, 也會模糊焦點, 換個觀點 ,各人得以喘息時, 才有能力做其他事。
半寄

Master Ban Ji responded.

"Thank you for your point of view. The basic life necessity is a complex issue. It involves the policies of a country, management of a company, the growing gap between the rich and the poor. This issue is beyond the scope of our discussion.

What we want to discuss is how an individual can get a rest in his/her own difficulties. I agree that a person's life can be influenced greatly by his/her environment, but this is a big topic and will cloud the issue. I think that by change the point of view, when people can take a break, then they can think about and have the ability to do other things."

元, Yuan 提到...

To Ang5:

Maybe so. But the point that I was trying to make is that people should not be obsessed about suffering.

也許。但是,我的重點是人不應該痴迷在苦中。

Maybe my article today on "Why Search For the Truth." can help clarify my point.

也許今天的文章『為什麼要探討真相』可以幫助闡明我的觀點。

電蚊燈 提到...

我認為,佛法是講給「生人」聽的,教導生人修持的,而絕大部分活生生的人最大的困境,就是「死」。沒有修行的人,當死亡困境來臨,沒有喘息的餘地,只有無 奈。或許寄予上帝,期盼救贖,或者看望來世,希望重生。殊不知,混沌的業力導向,誰都不知會去何方。生命的無常演進,神通再廣大,終究得死。所以我認為, 佛說「無常故苦」,佛是真的在闡明生生死死的生命苦處。因此,生命的解脫,從苦處下手,我認為是必修的課題。所以「無常故苦」,但值得慶幸的是,佛又說 「苦故無我」。從無常的苦中看清真相,在無常中得以解脫。

電蚊燈 wrote:

"I think that Buddhism is for the living. Its purpose is to teach the living how to live. But the biggest problem most people face is death. A person who had never Practiced have no chance for a relaxing breath when facing death, only frustration. Maybe he will pray to God for salvation. Maybe look forward to the next life for another chance. But no one knows where they would end up due to their Karma. No matter how much supernatural power you have, you will die one day, because life is impermanent.

So I think that when Buddha said 'anicca therefore dukkha', he really wanted us to know the suffering of our lives. So liberation need to start with dukkha, and I think it is a must. So 'anicca therefore dukkha' but fortunately, Buddha also said 'dukkha therefore anatta.'

From impermanent suffering to find the Truth, and from impermanence to find liberation."

半寄 提到...

電蚊燈 : 我們尊重你的看法
半寄

Master Ban Ji responded:

"電蚊燈, we respect your point of view."

半寄 提到...

再補充苦的說法, 每一個人會因為各人的痛苦,挫折, 而跟生命是苦的想法連結, 卻忽略了如果都是苦的一切, 誰也活不下去 !
人在苦難中, 如無法再學習, 再成長, 去談再多的苦也無任何意義!? 真要談生命是苦, 也得看從那個點談起 ,我個人也曾歷經苦難, 也曾認為生命是苦, 後來發覺那都不是被束縛的原因! 反而是自己陷入自我苦的糾纏罷了!,這是我想提的。
半寄

Master Ban Ji wrote:

"I like to supplement a point about Dukkha. Everyone thinks life is suffering because of their own individual pain, difficulties and frustrations. But people forget that if everything is suffering, then no one can live in this world.

When a person is distressed, if he does not learn and grow, it is pointless to talk about suffering. If you really want to say that life is suffering, you will also need to start from a specific point.

I, personally, had experienced many difficulties in life, and also thought that life is suffering. But later, I found that these sufferings are not the reason of my own imprisonment. But that I fell into the trap of the struggle with myself, thinking that suffering is myself.

This is the point that I like to raise."

電蚊燈 wrote:
生命最大的苦處,就是「邁向死亡」,貧富貴賤都不可免除。最大的苦,並不表示全部是苦,全部是苦就與「緣起」抵觸。佛陀用生 老病死苦來啟發我們去明白諸行無常,讓我們培養諸法無我的積極向上的人生態度,使得在生命的無常中,晦溺恐懼在苦裡的眾生得以解脫。這是我認為正視 「苦」、體會「苦」,是重要課題的看法。

"Life's biggest suffering is the 'path toward death.' The riches and the poor, celebrities and commoners, none can avoid it. The biggest suffering does not mean all is suffering. All is suffering will conflict with 'dependent origination.' Buddha used the sufferings of birth, old age, sickness and death to let us understand that all phenomenons are impermanent, and let us develop a positive attitude that all is anatta, so that humanity that are mired in suffering, mired in life's impermanence can find liberation. This is how I think 'dukkha' and empirically experience dukkha is an important topic."
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From: 如理思維 3 Reasoning 3

電蚊燈 提到...

師父講的如理思維,使我在眾多學派的思想中開始思考,比如說儒家,老莊,華嚴,天台,淨土等;絕對不敢說自己對眾多學派有多深入研究,但我要講的是,一個 思想對我來說,要我能用,而且好下手去修。我現在常用師父講的因緣果來思考事情,當時或當下如何決定,當中如何揀擇運作,最後怎樣面對結果。然後再檢視自 己的情感與事情的變化如何應對,看看過往的經驗與現況的連結。近期面對喪母之痛,我發現用因緣果來處理悲痛不捨的情緒,竟能讓我的情感緩緩釋放,有從游泳 池慢慢起身的感覺。用因緣果作為如理思維的「理」,能有效地平息情感與釐清事情。小心得分享。

電蚊燈 wrote:

"Master Ban Ji's article on 'Reasoning' lets me start to think about different schools of thoughts, such as Confucian, Tao, Huayuan, Tiantai, Pure Land...etc. I cannot say that I understand all these schools deeply. But what I want to say is that I need to be able to use and practice an idea. Now, I often used the idea of Yin (Cause), Yuan(Conditions) and Karmic results to think about an issue. How I made the decision, how I implemented the decision and how I faced the results. Then I looked at my own feelings, and how I react to the changes, to look at the relationships between my past experiences and my current situation. Recently, I encountered the pain of losing my mother. I found that using Yin,Yuan and Karmic Result to handle the feeling of sad dismay helped released my emotions. I have a feeling of slowing rising from bottom of a swimming pool. I just want to share with everyone that using the idea of Yin,Yuan and Karmic Result as the 'reason' in Reasoning can help calm your emotions and clarify issues."

半寄 提到.

恭喜電蚊燈, 跨出不小的一步!
半寄

Master Ban Ji responded:
"Congratulation, you have made a big step."
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From: 一即一切 3 One is All 3

半寄 提到...

前幾回的留言, 有說要再補充空的說法, 我說電蚊燈領悟的空法 , 只說對了一小部份 , 其實電蚊燈的想法大部份都在一即一切圍繞 , 空法是廣泛的一切可能 ,卻不是全部, 空法依然在法性之中 , 法性是一種規則, 假使一種不可能存在的因 , 再怎麼努力也創造不出成果來, 這種不能存在的事實, 再談空也無意義 。
這篇一即一切來自上回留言的靈感
半寄

Master Ban Ji wrote:

I want to add some comments to 電蚊燈's concept of sunyata from a previous comment. He was only partially right, but a lot of his ideas are all about "One is All." Sunyata is about the possibility of everything, but sunyata still must operate under the laws of nature. An Yin (Cause) that cannot possibly exist can never create a result, regardless of efforts. So it is useless to talk about Sunyata of impossible things. The idea for this article, "One is All," was triggered by his comment.

Master Ban Ji

元, Yuan 提到...

The comment that Master Ban Ji mentioned is here:

半寄師父說的留言在這裡

因緣果:還有一個伸展 Karma : One More Extension

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