“The results of
karma exist, but not the doer thereof” in Buddhism 1
We discussed the Ultimate Truth of Emptiness and persistence in the cultivation of virtues at all times last time. Today, let’s move on to our second topic—the results of karma exist, but not the doer thereof. This concept is also so difficult that only geniuses can totally comprehend it in just one day.
我們今天來討論一個主軸就好了，第二個，再下面那段，「有業報而無作者」我覺得光要把這幾個字，「有業報而無作者，」，七個字，今天能講清楚，大家都變成天才了！
Karmas defined as karmic debts are way too
narrow here, but in modern language, it also can be taken as force
power which could be involved in actions or motions of the subject. When one
moves, it’s his/her body that makes motions regardless of good or bad. Karma is
the cause but also the effect of motions. In this sense, it is interesting to
say the karma exists; the doer doesn’t exist. My body moves, but it is not the
I. The other expression is that a person runs to another place. Running
to another place is true, but the runner in that place is false.
大家學佛很久，不只是佛教講的業力，「業」這個動作，如果我們用現代語言可以理解，應該是運動！我做一件善事 ，我身體要去做對不對，身體力行，運動、身體在動；我做一件壞事，也是身體去做，運動，所以他是一個運動的結果！我在做一件事的時候，我在運動，但是運動的人是我，然後你又說我不存在，這是不是很有趣？！
When I just became a sangha, I was so busy
that my brain was occupied with all the practices and studies. There was no
time for me to understand this scripture deeply. Whenever I get a chance to
reread the text, I am still astonished by Buddha’s advanced and marvelous
ideas. Can “the results of karma exist, but not the doer thereof” be
interpreted as when I beat my body by my hand, the pain occurs, but the beater
is gone? If the beater is gone, so does the person feeling pain.
我剛出家的時候，我急著要研究佛法懂佛法，然後又要實修，我覺得我的腦袋、我的身體很忙碌，我沒有時間細想，等我有時間細想，我回頭看這種經文，覺得很可怕那時候的人會提到這種思想、思維是很可怕的！有業報無作者」我的手打我的身體，會痛！然後那個痛的動作是「有」，痛的人不在，可以理解嗎？不能理解！哈哈哈！這是他講的意思，我把他翻譯成另外一個你們可能比較能懂，痛的動作有，痛的人不在！
In ancient times, Chinese masters compared
this to a waterfall. As I remember, Sengzhao,
a patriarch of
the Sānlùn ("Three
Treatise") school
said, “a flowing waterfall exists, whereas water is unceasingly falling
away.” Does this explanation make it more sense to you?
古時候，這段經文傳到中國的時候，中國人怎麼解釋他你知道嗎? 中國人用瀑布，用瀑布來形容！我記得三論宗的祖師僧肇，用瀑布來形容作者不在的意思，形容說，它一直流的時候，瀑布存在啊但流水不斷！古代文言文就是這樣形容，瀑布在流，流水不斷！用這樣的一種形容來形容現在我們眼前看的，「有業報無作者」，這樣有沒有一點懂啊？
It is impossible to understand śūnyatā in
just one discussion. However, piles of piles of papers discussing śūnyatā make
it even more confusing. Let’s put aside other’s interpretations, just read the
original texts of the Saṃyuktāgama Sutra No. 335, and share your opinion.
Also, putting aside the impression or stereotype about how esoteric Buddhist
sutras would be, just talk about your thoughts and personal experiences after
reading the texts.
我剛剛講那個空，事實上不容易一次講就懂！所以如果我們在這裡，各位提出你們對他的理解我們來討論一下，這一段經文後來分裂成非常多非常多佛教的解釋，讓後面的人越看越一頭霧水，因為解釋太多了，那我們先不去看後人解釋，直接看原文，《雜阿含經》原文，你就直接，不要認為他是很深的的一種佛法，直接用你的感官，你現在能理解的我們來討論就好，先把那些我們被灌輸的那些佛經講得很深，佛經講得很深奧，是不能理解的那一種字眼都先拋開，用你的第一經驗，你現在聽到你現在看到的文字的經驗，你能想到的 我們來做個討論就好。
Derrick:
In my opinion, I beat on my left arm with my right hand, I did feel the pain. Since it’s I that beat myself, why does it say the beater does not exist? What is this trying to teach?
純德﹕有業報而無作者，如果是像我們對文字的理解，剛師父說的，我用我的右手打我的左手臂，那我會痛啊！可是無作者，明明就我自己打我自己，怎麼會說無作者呢？那他想要告訴我們什麼？
Ban Ji: Yes, that’s interesting.
半寄師父：是啊，這是很有趣的點！
Chun-te Yang:
Moreover, since there is pain felt, and I am
feeling it. If “not the doer thereof” is true, where to place the relationship
between I and the pain?
俊得﹕那痛明明就產生，那如果沒有作者，痛要在哪裡停留呢？
Ban Ji:
However, after reading this text again now, I
find it describes clearly that all the brilliant Indian people in the old-time
had attained higher wisdom far beyond our imagination.
半寄師父：
但是我現在回頭看這段經文，道盡印度人的聰明！印度人有可能存在的智慧超出我們的想像，我只能這樣講。
Prof. Atun:
I think neither the beater nor the beaten
exists. Thus, the doer thereof doesn’t exist.
阿惇老師：
我覺得他們兩個把作者是施打的人還是痛的人這兩個都不在了，所以無作者是...
Ban Ji:
But the results of karma do exist! Because
pain exists. When one exerts energy to do a virtuous act, their efforts create
power and thus create so-called good karma. The results of virtuous acts exist,
so do those of un-virtuous acts. When a person devotes energy to un-virtuous
acts, the energy will hang on and then going back around. Action is done,
and the doer has gone. Think carefully, no doer is in place, but the action
takes place. When the energy comes to fruition, that is called the result of
karma. No seeds. no harvest, just like action and karma. Fruits exist for
sure, not the farmer thereof.
半寄師父：
在！痛在啊！有業報 ，我做了一件好事，辛苦對不對？！他的運動產生能量所以他的福報會存在；跟做壞事也是一樣的，壞事，你也身體力行了，所以他的能量會存在，他跟著你，運動(動力)存在，但是作者不存在！想好，作者不存在，運動存在！運動就是你去做得好事跟壞事，所以叫果報，果報存在啊！我去耕耘有果實，我沒有耕耘沒有果實，果實是一定存在！但是這個耕耘的人不在喔。
The organization of Bliss and Wisdom Sangha in Taiwan studies Tsong-Kha-Pa’s (Zongkaba’ s) Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path would use a metaphor that when someone is looking into a mirror, the person reflected in the mirror is reflection, considered non-existence. However, just as Atun has said, “it needs a subject to do the action of looking at the mirror. Therefore, I must be real /existing when looking in a mirror. Isn’t that so? The later-generation Buddhist practitioners then develop an idea: existence comes before reflection, or subjectivity creates illusions. We just can’t deny it by saying all is illusory. If all is illusory, what can we practice? This metaphor is so profound we can further discuss if the I who am looking in the mirror exist. How does it match “the doer thereof doesn’t exist”?
我看，台灣現在講最多課的福智團體研究是《菩提道次地廣論》，宗喀巴大師的，他裡面的比喻是說：我在照鏡子，那我在照鏡子，鏡子裡面呈現的那個人是虛假的，那像阿惇老師講的，我照鏡子，我這個人應該是真的吧，是不是這樣？！後代都發展出這樣的想法，說假的後面有一個真的，你不能說全部都是假的啊，都假的，那修什麼？！ 但是，《菩提道次第廣論》內容也是豐富的。你看，我照鏡子，鏡子裡面有一個我，鏡子裡面那個我是虛假的。我這個照鏡子的人是真的，跟這句「有業報無作者」，你們覺得搭的上嗎？
Someone replies: If the doer is real, the doer thereof exists.
Ban Ji:
Right, if the doer is real, the doer thereof exists. But what if the doer is not real? It seems reasonable to suppose that he/ she won’t feel pain? Thereby, the results of karma don't exist! Chun-te, you have listened to my talk and had some idea of "Eight Negations of The Middle Path". What is your opinion?
Chun-te Yang:
Maybe, it is because if the doer thereof exists, then he might not be able to enjoy his own Karmic Results?
Ban Ji: What do you mean by not being able to enjoy his own Karmic Results?
Chun-te Yang:
I mean, seedling and fruition will not occur at the same time. After planting the seeds, one needs to wait for the fruit to grow and ripen. No farmer can sow and reap just on the same day. The grower and the reaper are not the same to enjoy his Karmic Results. Therefore, no the doer thereof exists. Is it right?
Ban Ji: They were half-right. Thanks a lot.
Chun-te Yang: I spent a long time pondering this sentence yesterday.
(有人回應)
如果是真的，就會有作者！
半寄師父：如果是真的，就會有作者。對的；那如果是假的呢？假的應該不會痛。對！假的就沒有業報！俊得請問你們以前聽我講八不中觀概念，你們對這句話的理解呢？
俊得：有沒有可能，如果有作者的話，他就吃不到果實，
半寄師父：有作者的話他就吃不到果實，什麼意思？
俊得：意思就是說，耕耘跟果實不可能同時發生，不可能今天馬上耕耘，今天馬上有果實，他需要成長期，他需要時間來等待，沒有果實跟耕耘同時發生的這種事！耕耘的作者，跟果實的作者，如果是同一個，那他就吃不到果實，所以應該沒有作者。這樣對嗎？
半寄師父：對一半，非常謝謝！
俊得：這句經文我昨天想很久。
Ban Ji:
The doer thereof doesn’t
exist is accurate. For those who repent for their wrongdoing, they still must
take the karmic results. But if believing that the doer thereof exists, keeps
us stuck in the situations. Most people assume that debts can be paid off immediately,
just like the wrongdoing can be canceled merely due to thoughts of repentance.
This is absolutely wrong because he hasn’t taken real actions to compensate the
victims for their loss yet. It is impossible that all will vanish as long as
confessing one’s guilt.
半寄師父：事實上沒有作者才是對的！我問你，做了一件壞事我懺悔了，如果那個作者是真的，你必須在當時的時空停留多久？你說？！我們一般都說，懺悔就了結了因為都已懺悔。事實上不可能！因為你對業報的存在還沒展開結束的動作。不可能我心裡動一下懺悔，就馬上所有做的事都煙消雲散。不可能！
Here are two points to consider. Firstly, if
debts remain even after repentance, how long a repenter will stay back to the
time and space of whatever event took place? A was supposedly killed by B
twenty years ago, but it is actually impossible for B to spend the following 20
years staying in the past? Secondly, would the world stop turning when B decide
to stay? Supposing B is still repenting for his/her crime committed in 1970
until 1990, which year is he/she actually staying, in 1970 or 1990? Dharma is
profoundly involved in different aspects of meanings.
但是如果你懺悔了還不能了結，你又要停留在原來的時空多久？例如殺一個人A，二十年後，A如果在青壯年被你殺，那你是不是還要二十年待在原來的時空中，這是一個點！第二個點，只有你待在原來的時空，那世界要不要跟著運轉，你殺人是1970年的事，你到1990年還在受罪，那你到底是留在1970年還是1990年？這研究佛學很深，就可以知道佛法牽扯的意義很多。
Derrick: Suppose I killed a person at 20, and
now I am 50. Thirty years have passed. I am different from the 30
-year-old self as defined, then there would be many difference between the two
selfs. Thereby, the doer thereof doesn’t exist.
純德：師父我20歲殺他，經過30年我50歲了，如果我們把30年前的那個人跟30年後的那個我定義成不同的人，那我們可以說那個作者已經不見了。
Ban Ji: Right, it is impossible for
redemption that a person can go back in time to repent their sins. Because time
passes without stopping, no one can stay without changing. Can anyone freeze
time?
半寄師父:對！所以你不能說我在懺悔，懺悔的你停留在原地時空，那有沒有人可以在原地時空停留？你告訴我。
Derrick: No.
純德：沒有！
Ban Ji:
Karma is not just about Karmic Results, but
further involves the relationship with time and space. The saying “the results
of karma exist, but not the doer thereof” is true. We can only get a better
understanding by putting it in the dimensions of time and space. Not only
karma, both virtuous and un-virtuous acts are also associated with time and
space. As the farming analogy reveals to us, a prospective farmer will not just
sit and wait. When it comes to fruition, doing nothing is not wise. Fruits
spoil fast even in postharvest. Good methods of postharvest storage can only
keep fruits fresh for a longer period of time. Three months maybe the max,
neither would karmic results(fruit) remain unchanged. Would you like to remain
idle in order to keep karmic results all the time? Some other people might
think abundance comes from sowing the seed of hard work. Why can’t we indulge
ourselves in good results and try to keep them forever?
半寄師父：
所以佛學在講業報，不是一般的果報，他還牽扯到時空問題，用時空才能解釋為什麼沒有作者。一件好事也是一樣，譬如說你今天果實滿滿的，你的耕耘得到不錯的果實，那你就站著不動嗎？我們稻穀收割以後好像儲藏三個月就不太新鮮了。果子也不會等著你來吃他，這也有時空問題，不要說業報，說你去造惡業，造善業也是時空問題，難道你就停留在你的時空吃果實嗎？！
Being aware of the past is keeping you stuck
and make you left behind, you will know how to overcome obstacles in life.
Answering some questions becomes easy and clear. On the assumption that all
other people have moved on and left you indulging in your Karmic Results. Will
you keep up with them? Or you will repent in order to keep your guilty
conscience in place, then ask yourself to whom you are repenting?
這個問題如果你想的通，你的人生會解開很多你不能打開的結。我這句話聽得懂嗎？如果你意識到，我這麼辛苦才有這些果實可以吃，我就抱著它不放，然後你意識到，我抱著它不放，而其他人走了，你要不要跟著走？那如果你在原地懺悔，大家都走了，那你怎麼辦？你一直在那邊懺悔，你跟誰懺悔？你要做什麼才能彌補你做錯的事？這個都值得探討。
How great “The results of karma exist, but
not the doer thereof.” is! Buddha has pointed out the problem of the time-space
in his teaching. However, little has been discussed about śūnyatā in terms of
the axis of the time-space until nowadays. Because people only come across more
about the issue of the time-space in modern time. From the time-space approach,
it became more interesting for the discussion of good and bad karma. Consider
this, “ whether you would like to confine yourself in the past?”
所以我覺得這句「有業報無作者」的經文很偉大，佛陀在講授祂的教學時已經有時空的問題提出！時光的探討很少，到近代人比較容易理解到有時空的問題存在。所以如果你用時空來講福報跟業障的時候 ，這很值得探討的，很好玩！你要不要一個人停留在那個時空裡？
Atun:
I consider the one who committed a crime is
no longer me, whereas others still remember that I killed the man. The fact is
that the man was dead after all.
阿惇老師：我已經覺得過去殺人的人已經不是我，可是別人還認得我殺了他，那個人還是死了。
Ban Ji:
Right, consider the following questions. How
can you repay your karmic debts as soon as possible when you take no actions to
repay your debt, merely repenting in the past time and space? The situation would
be getting more entangled in the relationship between the killer and the
killed, and not able to change even when your-standing-point is different in
relation to time-space? Time has gone and so has space. What is with you? What
should you do?
Master Ban Master Ban Ji
Translated by Ken Kraynak
(Translated
by Hui-tun Chuang and Grace Jui-hsin Tsai)
(Proofread
by Sophia Fang-chun Kuo)
半寄師父：
對啊！所謂有業報，你殺了他，但是你又不願意停留在那個時空裡，那你到底要什麼方法趕快還完債呢？若不還完債，你在已經過去的時空那邊懺悔，有可能只有殺與被殺兩個人的糾結，而時空不起作用嗎？時空也走，你該怎麼辦？
半寄
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